16 June, 2008

What is White?

Posted by Socrates in genetic interests, genetics, Jewish genetics, race, race science, racial science, Socrates at 2:22 pm | Permanent Link

True, the definition of “White” has shifted somewhat, e.g., Italians and Spaniards used to be considered non-White. But “White” will always mean “your ancestors originated from a White European country.” [1]. That automatically excludes negroes, Mexicans, Jews, Asians and various mixtures of those groups. They can call themselves “White” but it won’t mean that they are:


[1] Alex’s definition of “White” is a good one: “if you look White, you are White” unless you’re a Jew. Granted, a few Mexicans who have lots of Spanish genes look White, and they could be White depending on their family trees, i.e., some of them – especially the wealthy ones – have remained Spaniards by not breeding with the Mexicans/Mexican Indians

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  7. 44 Responses to “What is White?”

    1. Jim Says:

      The Nordic race is the only true “white race”. The Alpine and Mediterranean branch of our race are technically “white,” but with some non- white admixture. The Nordic race is the most valuable component of our race, but unfortunately the component that is disappearing the most rapidly, thru low birth rates and miscegenation with non-white races.

    2. Osama bin Laden Says:

      Jim is either an idiot or an anti-racist troll trying to create division by claiming that some whites are non-white. Alpine and Mediterranean racial types are not tainted with non-white blood. The question of non-white admixture is one answered by history pertaining to specific geographic regions, not to entire racial groups native to Europe.

    3. Osama bin Laden Says:

      Steve Sailer has a good article about defining race today: http://vdare.com/sailer/080615_race.htm

      The issue with Southern Europeans is the fact that they represent a distinctly different ethnic admixture than the people who initially settled America. The first settlers were Northern Europeans and tended to settle in ethnically homogeneous communities. It is no different than Britain letting in Poles.

      There is diversity in whiteness and the cultures we practice, so the idea of a traditionally Northern European settlement (America) letting in people who are culturally and ethnically different is, of course, going to not hold a lot of favor for people who want to preserve culture and demographics.

      As far as WN’s are concerned, I would suggest not abiding by the stricter definitions of past generations because the priorities for whites today is our basic survival as a race. Our culture is already destroyed. All whites who hold the same basic principles are my brothers in battle.

      I think the future will be small communities of self-supporting whites. This is where ethnic definitions might play a more important role in helping to rediscover our past cultures and finding the things that unify individuals together back into a cohesive identity.

    4. MHK Says:

      Facial structure (especially the shape of the eyes, nose and lips) is the most reliable evidence of a person’s racial affiliation, but I don’t think we should dwell on the issue of biological whiteness at this point because it would be counterproductive.

      After our race has been liberated from the jew parasite, we can settle this matter amongst ourselves by creating a legal definition that’s based on genetic research.

      Until then, all people who self-identify as white should be accepted as such in the absence of any proof to the contrary.

    5. MHK Says:

      One more thing: historically, the jews have always tried to avoid the issue of what constitutes “real jewishness” because of the potential for causing infighting.

      Only after the state of Israel was created did they resolve this matter by legally defining jews as a matrilineal ethnic group.

      They waited until the time was right before they tackled the “who’s who” question, and so must we.

    6. Jim Says:

      Osama has misundersstood the point I was trying to make. Germany under National Socialism was composed of Nordics, Alpines and Mediterranean Whites who made of the “Volkish* community. Hitler was Nordic-Alpiine, and Goebbels was primarily Mediterranean. The national goal was to increase the amount of Nordic blood in the population. I did not say that Alpines and Mediterraneans were nonwhite, but they have a degree of non-white blood. (See Madison Grant; The Passing of the Great Race”)

    7. Tim Harris Says:

      Someone is White if he is accepted as such by the White Tribe.

    8. Mark Says:

      Sailor’s view of race as “family writ large” is accurate to a degree, although historically race formed from isolated breeding populations. Obviously families now can be racially mixed, and populations you find in South America and India for example are mixed families writ large.

      Historically white was created by early American settlers to separate themselves from native Mongoloids and imported Negroid slaves, and to a lesser extent darker Caucasians. They wanted to maintain their Germanic and Celtic racial heritage. The phenotype typically being fair-skinned, brown or blond-haired and light-eyed.

      I think everyone recognizes the Northern European type as the standard for white, even non-whites do.

      Richard McCulloch outlines this and I believe it’s a good standard to go by. http://www.racialcompact.com/

      We certainly don’t want a swarthy standard of white that has been tainted by Negroid and Mongoloid strains like South America has, do we?

    9. Mark Says:

      “As far as WN’s are concerned, I would suggest not abiding by the stricter definitions of past generations because the priorities for whites today is our basic survival as a race. Our culture is already destroyed. All whites who hold the same basic principles are my brothers in battle.”

      I agree with that to a certain extent. Politically we can work together, but that doesn’t mean we can’t maintain our unique ethnic and racial heritage. Why can’t we do both? We can.

    10. smitty Says:

      This article served it purpose well. Its purpose is to divide us. They use the southern Italian argument to make whites say, “See how stupid this whole race thing is, we are all really the same”. Anyone who thinks that we aren’t in this together, Italians included are fooling themselves. Also remember that the Italians seem to be the only white group in America which actually confront trouble instead of running from it.

    11. Osama bin Laden Says:

      “but they have a degree of non-white blood”

      This is what I dispute. There is absolutely no evidence to substantiate this. You can substantiate that individual regions, due to historical events, underwent nominal to greater than nominal levels of race mixing, but as a whole, the Alpine and Med. racial types are not racially mixed in of themselves. I could show you examples of non-white admixture into parts of the population of Finland that is outwardly Nordic as a whole.

    12. Wolf Says:

      The concept of moral and immoral racism is interesting.

      From the link above two forms are racism are definied:

      Moral racism: a beleif that supports racial rights and affirms the right of all races to life, independence and self-determination.

      Immoral racism: a beleif that rejects and denies racial rights in favor of racial competition for territory, dominance, mastery and existence i.e. survival of the fittest unrestricted my morality.

      Sometimes I wonder which camp I fall into. For example, if I could, right now, close my eyes and snap my fingers and have all the negroes in the world simply dissapear from the face of the earth, instantaneously and without suffering…would I do it? I think I would.

    13. Whitepride Says:

      I think that the proper course is to preserve the genetic diversity within the “European Race”, as Lindbergh refered to it as, so far as is feasible.

      The best way to achieve this goal is to reassert the tradional nations of Europe free from muds and jews.

      Still we need inter-White National solidarity and co-operation even once we dispense with the jews and muds to counter the rising threat to our global dominance by the chinese.

      There are 1.3 billion of those motherfuckers and they are not low IQ savages like niggers.

    14. Blackshirt Says:

      I hear the “Nordic Supremacist” argument brought forth alot on different forums and I guess I will always be against this form of thought because I’m part Southern Italian. One thing I can say is that I firmly see myself (and others see me) as 100% White European.

      With that said, I invite the Nordic Supremacists to allienate and discriminate against the Slavs and Mediterraneans. When you do so you eliminate 50 % of the White population on this earth, and I wish you good luck in achieving White survival on those terms. If we ever do come into power there will definitely be a civil war amongst us White folk. And when (and if) that day comes I will fight and defend myself against the Nordic supremacist types who would try to exterminate me.

    15. Whitepride Says:


      Lets not jump the gun. The scenario you described is silly, it will not happen.

      Hitler used Spanish and Italian soldiers in Operation Barbarossa because he had great respect for them. He had great personal respect for Mussolini.

      One of my good friends is half-Sicilian and no one would mistake him for non-White. I wouldn’t even have known unless he told me.

      When it comes to some of the peaks of European civilizational achievement you Meds have got nothing to worry about. Perhaps its us Nordics who should feel inferior by comparison.

      I do however suspect that there are minor genetic differences beyond just the obvious ones of physical appearances. I suspect Meds are more gifted in terms of painting, sculpting, and depth of spirituality. Also, I suspect they are more gregarious on average.’

      Also, I would like to preserve the unique look of Nordics as I suspect you would like to preserve the unique look of Meds.

      We need not institute any special policies to achieve this end, it occurs naturally. Italian-Americans mostly keep to their own and have a stronger ethnic identity than most other White Americans.

      In Europe we don’t see tons of Italians and Spanish flooding into Nordic countries even though under the EU they are free to do so. They are mostly happy to stay and breed amongst their own. In fact now many British are moving to Spain and Italy to get out of the multicult nightmare that is Britain.

      Even many jews look Nordic. I can’t really think of any really Nordic looking ones off hand but Natalie Portman could certainly pass as a Northern European. Even if some people had jew blood in them but look White I would accept them into our racial family so long as so long as they were really with us. Not back stabbing crypto-kikes.

    16. Wolf Says:

      As I understand it some or most Northern Italian White Nationalists, who call their region Padania, disparage their Southern compatriots as dark “Arabs” and “Africans”. They’ve also been known to dislike Greeks, Balkans, Spaniards and Portuguese. I don’t know how much of this phenomena can be attributed to “Nordic Supremacism”. Seems more of a home-grown Italian dispute.

    17. James T Says:

      Well stated, Whitepride, and thank you.

    18. Mark Says:

      Whites who for whatever reason find Northern European preservation offensive and call it “Nordic supremacism” are really just displaying the same pathology and rhetoric of Jews and anti-racists who attack racialist whites.

    19. Olde_Dutch Says:

      We tend to forget that historically Roman north Africa was very White. So was present day Turkey, before the 12th century. Iran was once too.

    20. -jc Says:

      One of the biggest crooks I’ve encountered personally in recent years is a Sephardic Jew by the name of Saldana. Sephardic Jews are very common in the Southwest and some are very light-skinned, some have blue eyes.

      Read about Sephardim, conversos, and consider so called Christians and the Catholic Church.

    21. Randolf Facto Says:

      This is an excellent debate about why bonds based solely upon race WON’T work… bonds of common goals and faith WILL work, even if they cross ethnic lines.

      We’ve all known too many villains of our own kind… and loyal friends not of our immediate ethnic heritage.

    22. Whitepride Says:


      “We’ve all known too many villians of our own kind…”

      Of course, it is as it ever was. Just read Shakespeare is you are in doubt. What our people are in almost all aspects can be plotted along a fequency distribution that will be shaped “normally” or a “bell-curve” once we have quantitative measures of a representatve sample of whatever it is that is being measured.

      The crux of our problem is that these normal distributions don’t sufficiently over-lap with those of other groups for take your pick characteristic or behavior; this creates friction.

      Perhaps you know an excellent chap who happens to be black or a jew, you get on well and you respect him. Wonderful, so far as it goes.

      One problem, when the shit hits the fan and his groups interests (black or jew say) with your groups interests (White) which do you suppose he will side with. People have group identities and group loyalties. This is how we evolved, this is who we are, this is our nature.

      We are not self-sufficient beings, we cannot live a full and satisfactory life without group attachments; not to mention that we cannot reproduce without said.

      The more we are piled on top of each other in a multicultural setting the more even lines will be drawn between good friends of disparate groups. Loyalties will have to be realigned, friendships will have to be terminated.

      I know it can seem overwhelming at times, even too horrible to be true. And yet it is true. We must act accordingly.

    23. Blackshirt Says:

      I appreciate what you said White Pride, and I know there are level-headed and rational White racists out there like yourself. With that said, there are lots of Nordic Supremacists out there who aren’t rational and talk a good deal amongst themselves and sometimes on forums about eliminating Slavs and Meds from the White racial family. Often they don’t come right out and say it, but they will differentiate by claiming to accept only “Germanic” and “Nordic” elements of the populations of Southern and Eastern Europe. One can only speculate as to how these folks would operate if given the chance to purge the White race of the “mongoloid tainted” Slavs or the “swarthy” Southern Europeans. I personally don’t trust them and I understand what they really mean.

    24. sgruber Says:

      Inter-White bickering is rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic after it hit the jewberg. (How’s that for a pseudo-Linderism?) Every family has its squabbles, its black sheep (metaphorically speaking here), its crazy aunt, its energetic brothers, etc. But when the family is attacked from outside – total unity against the attacker must obtain or the family is destroyed.

      We must all hang together, or we will hang separately – as one of our great White ancestors observed.

      White unity.

      The time has come to get rid of the jew.

    25. Randolf Facto Says:

      “One problem, when the shit hits the fan and his groups interests (black or jew say) with your groups interests (White) which do you suppose he will side with.”

      What you say is true, Whitepride, but when I say a bond of common goals and faith, if said individual (I wasn’t really talking about blacks and jews, but they’ll serve as the extreme instance of crossing ethnic boundaries) ‘sided with their own group’ merely on the basis of race, then they wouldn’t fit my initial criteria of common goals and faith with other ‘white’ individuals.

      And what Blackshirt says is very real… we can talk all we want about white solidarity, but if we could snap a finger and make all non-whites disappear, would the next ‘problem’ on the earth become Nordics versus Alpines versus Mediterraneans?

      Hitler’s biggest mistake was looking as Slavs as lesser peoples worthy only of subjugation, instead of being a true liberator during the Russian invasion.

      So the bottom-line remains… it’s wonderful to think of a world where all whites put their differences aside and fight the ‘common’ enemy. Unfortunately, the common enemy is comprised of too many of our own kind… and people of true good will are in sufficient numbers amongst our so-called enemies, so that eradication based solely upon race would never be a righteous act… and the white man can’t operate properly unless he believes he’s got God on his side.

    26. Celtic Warrior Says:

      Most ‘main-stream’ native Europeans are cousins.
      However, some posters have expressed the attitude of, “we’ll decide who is White once we have kicked out the nigz & mudz.”
      Well, I won’t get into that debate but what I will say, when is this happy day set to happen? Is this new Aryan dawn just around the corner?

      Our troubles are bad enough without fracturing the growing harmony between Nordics, Meds and Alpines.

      I don’t wish to be despondent, just realistic wth respect to the tide of color that is engulfing Europe. We face a herculean task of removing the non whites from Europe’s great urban centers.

      I fear this task will take many decades, it maybe achieved by our grandchildern, if we are permitted to produce any!

    27. Jim Says:

      If a jew has half Nordic blood, he is no longer a Nordic in any sense of the word. He may have blond hair and blue eyes, but psychically, he is a jew thru and thru.
      The jew debases any bloodline he mixes with. Whatever shape our future White Nationalist State ultimately takes the first priority is for it to be absolutely kike free.

    28. Whitepride Says:

      Thanks to all for your thanks.


      Yeah, I agree, Hitler fucked up on the “Slavic question.”

    29. MB Says:

      Hitler didn’t “fuck up” on the Slavic question at all. They may be white, and I welcome them into this fight, but they sure as hell aren’t Germanic people – and that was (rightly) Hitler’s first priority.

      In today’s battle, a bigger one than Hitler ever dreamed of, Linder’s definition is a good one.

      Now if we can just get some adults involved….

    30. Randolf Facto Says:

      “Hitler didn’t “fuck up” on the Slavic question at all. They may be white, and I welcome them into this fight, but they sure as hell aren’t Germanic people – and that was (rightly) Hitler’s first priority.”

      Let’s be honest now… if the Germans had truly liberated the Slavs and treated them as equals during the Russian invasion, instead of just another people to be eradicated or pushed aside in the name of ‘German superiority’, things could have gone a lot different on the Eastern Front… and in the end, did Hitler’s “Germanic people” priorities help or hinder Western Civilization?

      If his intent was to make a martyr out of himself to a handful of sociopaths, whom he himself would have thrown into the first concentration camp, and afterwards put the West more firmly in the hands of the Jews, then indeed he didn’t ‘fuck up’.

    31. Blackshirt Says:

      Here, here Randolf! Well put. Hitler wasn’t a Pan Aryan at all, he was a German Nationalist first and foremost. He did move towards Pan Aryanism once the war started to turn against the Germans out of pure necessity- he didn’t have enough German supermen left to put into the field. Men like Leon Degrelle showed what Pan Aryanism could’ve been if it had been given a chance.

      But you are 100% correct Randolf… Hitler did fuck up in the East. If he would’ve listened to Alfred Rosenberg instead of allowing Himmler to dictate policy in the East, the Germans could’ve made good use of the goodwill they encountered in places like the Ukraine, etc. Despite what the Western allies say, the war for Germany was lost in the East.

      All of this is irrelevant now, though. WWII was over 60 years ago and anyone who is still fighting it in their minds are usually Holywood Nazis.

    32. Celtic Warrior Says:

      Some of us are still fighting WW1!! If only Moltke’s staff hadn’t ordered General von Kluck to withdraw during the Battle of the Marne, we wouldn’t be in the mess we are in today.

    33. Marwinsing Says:

      My Mammy’s a blue-eyed Nordic Princess and my Pappy’s a brown-eyed Alpine Bull – so what does that make us? – a green-eyed growling grunting schweinhund.

    34. Randolf Facto Says:

      This issue isn’t to refight WWI or WWII with “what ifs”. The point is to make sure we recognize the mistakes of past leaders that would adversely affect our current situation, if we followed them verbatim.

      The ‘Slavic Question’ relates directly to the very real modern concerns of non-Nordic whites.

      Much of the so-called ‘movement’ pays homage to Hitler, so all Aryans that don’t fit the so-called Nordic Ideal have the right to demand what others of their so-called brotherhood think about the issue.

      Because if in the rare instance we actually do get out of the current mess we’re in and reestablish ourselves as a white nation, the last thing we need is for our Alpine/Slavic and Mediterranean brothers to be considered ‘less worthy’.

      As a matter of fact, I think if a white nation ever does get reestablished, it will be predominantly due to the courage and fighting abilities of our Eastern, Central, and Southern European brothers, and not so much the Northern Europeans (who seem to have been eviscerated by guilt over colonization and WWII).

      And I say that as a ‘full Nordic’ myself.

    35. apollonian Says:

      “White” Is Mere Abstraction Fraught With Difficulty
      (Apollonian, 18 Jun 08)

      Problem w. use of “white” for designation of race is it’s abstraction, which abstraction is automatically inferior to more specific designation, German, Celt, Slav, Italian, etc. Even “European” would be better than gross abstraction, “white.”

      So as soon as u find urself using such abstraction, “white,” u’ll note u’re in trouble, having to deal with others’ special pleading. For that’s always the problem w. abstractions, the definitions and necessary references thereto.

      For “white” refers to color, hence looks, and what if u have a scummy, hook-nose Jew who otherwise “looks” nearly white?–hey, that’s “white” enough for a Jew, Jews who create reality and truth, don’t forget, Jews to whom God is mere slave (see RevisionistHistory.org, TruthTellers.org, and Come-and-hear.com for best Talmudic expo).

      “White” then is only useful when opposed to visibly non-white races, and main issue in such case is simply civilization and reason against non-whites’ non-civilization and non-reason–which isn’t always the case, though often enough–as all races strive for civilization. Never forget the leaders of anti-reason ARE ALWAYS JEWS. And Jews closest followers among “whites” are always queers.

      And this non-civilization and non-reason IS ALWAYS premise for MORALISM by which one is supposed to relinquish pride and loyalty for race.

      Always, always–whenever one encounters anti-whites, it’s always in service OF MORALISM, hence Pharisaism, always–and these moralists are almost always led by Jews and their suck-along whites (paid by Jews, many of them being actually queers).

      So the best advice is to remember “white” is mere abstraction and has ONLY provisional, NEVER DEFINITIVE, utility for discussion of race and civilization. For all races strive towards civilization, reason, honor, respect, pride, and loyalty–ONLY THE JEW HATES SUCH REASON, and always in name of MORALISM, always.

      That’s why problem is really this putrid moralism and stupid, scummy, dip-shits who pretend they can be “good,” the puke. Thus inferiority complex is always the base and motive of this disgusting yearning for “good” which moralism then ALWAYS becomes enemy of race–all races, even the non-whites who are used as enforcers against the white races.

      CONCLUSION: Discussion of race is never complete without discussion of civilization and culture, thence of moralism and under-lying philosophy–it’s all a gross can-of-worms which requires most cultured circumspection. Honest elections and death to the Fed. Apollonian

    36. Celtic Warrior Says:

      Perhaps we should ditch the term ‘white’ and substitute, the more specific term….a person of European race and culture??

    37. Can't fool me- any of you Says:

      I’ll break it down like this……..a lot of you are jews spewing disinformation into the white media, in effforts to re-engineer the movement via: the internet. I’ve caught many of you jews with fly-by-nite orgnaizations, attempting covert design mass-media, that sheds you in a white light. Or some turncoats, caught and forced to fish for suckers. Either way, you ain’t gonna Matt Hale me, I don’t know who the fuck you are. Even if your great-great grandma was breeding with jews in efforts to control modern-era populations like this, I still can identify you via code, facial recognition, and strategy. Your textbook templates and design, make it easy to spot you. What did Doc Pierce wrote in Turner Diaries? He wrote, “they filtered out only the purest, more than other cities did.”

    38. Whitepride Says:

      Can’t fool me-any of you,

      Dude, you sound like a serious nutjob.

    39. Milano Says:

      “The issue with Southern Europeans is the fact that they represent a distinctly different ethnic admixture than the people who initially settled America. The first settlers were Northern Europeans and tended to settle in ethnically homogeneous communities.”

      Geez, and I thought the first settlers in America were Spaniards led by an Italian Admiral!

      To my northern European cousins: that’s mighty White of you guys to consider us “meds” white too. Especially when you consider that civilization came to Europe from Rome. While my ancestors had hot and cold running water, indoor toilets, and a colliseum that seated 50,000 with a retractible roof, yours were wearing animal skins, dancing around fires, and shaking rattles.

      But that’s history. We sure do have to stick together now against our common enemy, the Jews.

      Speaking of the Jews, let’s remember our more recent history: who beat the Jews in the 20th Century? Answer: FRANCO.

      Hitler lost.

    40. Campbell Crawford Clan Says:

      I was not aware that some Nordics have a need to separate from other Whites. If true, then what’s the problem? If some Germans want to live among other Germans, I feel that is their right to do so. There will be many who will not be so exclusionary of other White groups. I think this is true because the proof is in our past.

      The majority of my White ancestors came to America in the early 1700’s. So, my Scottish ancestors married English, who married French, who married Irish. Apparently, the attraction among different Whites has always been with us. In fact, several of my Scottish ancestors intermarried with English even before coming to America.

      So, my question is this:
      If we should separate into ethnic enclaves, where would the millions of Americans, who are of different European ethnicities belong? Wouldn’t this complicate things? This question may be premature, however I believe it’s important and perhaps many others are troubled by it too.

    41. Might Whitey Says:

      I believe there is an American race composed of the posterity of the colonial populations, who were celtics and germanics: scotts, english, germans, and dutch specifically and I think it should stay that way. certainly more mixing has occurred with eastern and southern europe but i think it should cease, all immigration in fact , and maintain America as a celtic/germanic northern european nation.

    42. The Moorish Invasion Says:

      The darker-skinned people who live in modern Rome are descended from the Moors, not the ancient Romans (who looked like “Nords” according to busts and statues made by the Romans themselves).

      The lighter-skinned people who live there may or may not be descended from their ancient counterparts.

    43. Voir Dire Says:

      I hope everyone will watch these two exemplary, short videos that were posted on Curt Maynard’s blog, and draw inspiration from them (especially in light of the frequent in-fighting I see here:



      Unite against the blight!

    44. -JC Says:

      When one visits Italy (or Mexico), for example, one encounters many “Latinos” as White as the driven snow– even in Southern Italy. All parts of the world have their mongrels. The Romans brought home slaves and, I’m sorry to report, Italy currently has a very relaxed attitude about immigration and race-mixing.

      Because I traced my pedigree back to the 1600s, I thought my relatives were all at least from England, Scotland, and Wales. Looking a little further, I found a line from Northern Italy that I was able to confirm via DNA as Mediterranean. I’m very white-skinned, blond and blue-eyed, and so is my daughter even though her mother has hazel eyes– a more dominant characteristic. I’m certainly not non-white however I consider that I have Latino admixture– not Moorish (Black) or Amerindian (Mestizo) blood.

      I think we need to get our terminology straightened-out: Nationality and racial origin are simply not one in the same though that’s pretty much the way the society in which I grew-up used language. Generally, in the Southwest, instead of using the term Mestizo for mixed-breed European Latinos crossed with Meso-American Indians, for example, they are just referred-to as Mexicans. I think it behooves us to be more precise.

      When I traveled in predominately White Northern Italy, I noted every race and mixed-race under the sun speaking Italian with a pretty solid local accent, indicating they had been there for some time. Those who really stood-out however were some of the blackest Blacks I’ve ever seen in Europe who were selling socks, underwear, and umbrellas on rainy days by walking into restaurants and other businesses or simply squatting on the sidewalk with absolutely no objection from the locals. The garbage trucks were plastered with posters shouting Recycle for Africa: I’m convinced by MacDonald’s recent piece on New England Transcendentalism but also plainly see the same problems of White tolerance for diversity throughout the predominately White world.