10 March, 2008

“Patrick Grimm Interviews Andrew Winkler of Ziopedia”

Posted by Socrates in Jewish genetics, Jewish myths, Patrick Grimm, Socrates at 5:48 pm | Permanent Link

Make no mistake: Grimm’s work is excellent. However, by publishing this interview, he may inadvertently be fostering two myths about the Jews. The first one is the Khazar myth. Dr. John R. Baker, in his classic book “Race,” says that the Khazars are not related to Ashkenazim Jews [1]. The second myth is that Jews can somehow lose their Jewishness if they try hard enough. They can’t. Their Jewishness is genetic – unless we are talking about gentile converts to the religion of Judaism. Newbies, please focus on this fact: according to Baker, most Jews on the planet – “perhaps 90%” – are Ashkenazim. Those Jews are so genetically similar to each other that they contract two dozen genetic diseases, so they are a race. (That doesn’t mean that the other main branch of Jewry, the Sephardim, should be ignored) [2][3]:


[1] Dr. Baker says that the Khazars are “distinct in physical type from all the European Jews of today.” (from Baker’s book “Race,” 1981 edition, chapter 14, p. 234)

[2] according to U.S. government standards, the Jews are a race and not simply an ethnic group (see footnote #2): [Here]

[3] the Khazar myth aids the Jews in several ways, e.g., by absolving them of guilt. They can argue that it was the Khazars, and not “real” Jews, who sacked Russia and Eastern Europe via communism. The myth also confuses gentiles about Jewish history

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  7. 30 Responses to ““Patrick Grimm Interviews Andrew Winkler of Ziopedia””

    1. none Says:

      The Khazar myth (Jewish in origin, of course) will never be eradicated: it’s too convenient for lukewarm closest anti-Semites. But I have never seen, and I believe anyone would be challenged to find, a Jew claiming it was “Khazars” or “fake” Jews who “sacked Russia and Eastern Europe via communism” — which would involve admitting that Jews were party to the Bolshevik revolution in the first place, something they are very careful to gloss over, I think we can all agree. In fact, this is certainly the first time I’ve ever encountered the idea. Think about the implication, here. It isn’t like Jews to say:

      -Jews were leaders in the Bol.Rev.
      -But they were Khazarian/Turkic Jews, not Ashkenazi/ethnic Jews
      -Therefore the Bol.Rev. proves nothing against us

      Way too sloppy for a Jew, who is a past master at making himself the victim even where he is the most blatant victimizer.

      Anyway, no one serious about anti-Semitism need waste time on that Khazar baloney. Why cling to the half-baked romanticism of a drug-addled Jewish fiction writer?

    2. Friedrich Braun Says:

      The first one is the Khazar myth. Dr. John R. Baker, in his classic book “Race,” says that the Khazars are not related to Ashkenazim Jews [1].

      Not so, genetic studies confirm the Khazar hypothesis.


    3. none Says:

      The fact is, every religion has its converted tribes and racial detritus on its periphery. That Jews have Falashas and Yemenites says nothing against the startling ethnic, mental, historical homogeneity of the Ashkenazim, or German-Jews. Further, seems to me this division Ashkenazi/Sephardi is overplayed — first because they weren’t racially distinct to begin with, second because, after the Reconquista, these Sephardim established communities among the Ashkenazim and were eventually assimilated. Adorno was from a Corsican “Sephard” family, doesn’t look/read any different from your run-of-the-yeshiva Hymie Heimwitz to me. I’d easily go so far as to say the division, whatever its reality a few centuries ago, is now very much dead — much as “Yiddish identity”, and all the other maudlin “lost identities” of “Jewish memory” are dead, gone, assimilated into the modern Ashkenazi mainstream of America and Israel.

      Look at Islam: because its flag flies over black and Asian peoples, does this change the fact that this religion arose from one distinct ethnos, the Arab? But the problem is the ethnically neutral term “Muslim” — whereas “Yehudim” is specific, or concretely ethnic. It’d be like calling all Islamic populations “Arabs” because they were the founder population. This didn’t happen because Islam is ecumenical, whereas, recall, the Jews deified themselves — leading to the adoption of the term by these tiny fractions of other populations, and of course by those who marry actual Jews.

    4. none Says:

      Ah well. If khazaria.org says so, it must be true.

    5. none Says:

      Psychological studies prove anti-Semitism is a mental disorder:


    6. none Says:

      But really, I’m not saying the side with the ax to grind is necessarily wrong. Just that with a kooky idea like Khazaria, it’s bound to be the case. Much like guys who think white nationalists should colonize the moon — I think F. Braun may just be one of those. Fact is, the Khazar myth, theory, whatever you call it, is nothing more than a folk tale; it bears the improbable, highly romantic scent of a folk tale, and people pass it on like a folk tale. Tales of strange or fantastic origins will always, absolutely always appeal to simple minds who prefer the exotic to the mundane, the far to the near, the arcane to the mundane. God forbid the Jews, who have at the very least always shewn incomparable zeal in recording their own history, be right about their own origins, from Mesopotamia, to Canaan, to Egypt and the Sinai, to Babylonia, the Rhineland and the Pannonian plain. No! All wrong, say the adherents of Koestler’s “theory” — some Turks mass-converted to Judaism and they (who no doubt look very much like the Turks of today!) are the real Jews, and so — and so — ah! have no right to Israel or the charge of “anti-Semitism”!!!

    7. none Says:

      The only false distinction we need worry about today is Jew/Zionist, of which Grimm, I believe, is a proponent. Anyone who tries to preserve this distinction is holding back because they tell themselves they know some “good Jews”, or maybe want to bang a hot little Jewess in the next residence hall; in other words are compromised and foist this mental, moral compromise onto the perception of others. Or they say it is illogical that all or most Jews can be put in the same category as real or potential malefactors. This proves only that they haven’t even begun to understand the Jews.

      Sorry for all the comments. I just am so sick of this kooky “Khazar” bullshit, all of these crazy romantic tales the majorityrights/phora/stormfroth/true-israelite/etc. set likes to kick around.

    8. Tim Harris Says:

      Well Socrates, apart from motivations people might have for or against, there is the basic question of fact. Solzhenitsyn discusses the Khazar question (see here) favorably. I don’t see why it would mitigate guilt for bolshevism, since the Khazars were integrated into the main stock and unless they had been repudiated before the revolution, it would be special pleading to do so after.

    9. none Says:

      “Solzhenitsyn discusses the Khazar question (see here) favorably.”

      Solzhenitsyn is an authority? who cares what he favors? maybe he’s just caught the same bug as everyone else?

      “since the Khazars were integrated into the main stock”

      But no: the Khazarians claim that the Khazars who converted to Judaism are the main stock of modern Jews! At least get the kooky thing right.

    10. Donald E. Pauly Says:

      Jews are so genetically similar that they can transplant noses between each other without rejection drugs.

    11. none Says:

      “apart from motivations people might have for or against”

      So what might be the motivation for believing it to be true? Jews don’t believe it, as I show above — and you won’t find a Jew who does, much less uses it to “absolve” Jewish involvement in Bolshevik Revolution, which they never admit anyway.

      Socrates is confusing the issue, actually glossing over the real reason for this idea’s popularity — which lay in our camp, obviously. So I ask, what might be the motivation? why would anti-Semites (from Ford’s day to our own) believe this idea?

      ‘Nother point: what is meant when we say “Turks”? do we mean the equestrian warriors from the steppe who settled in Anatolia, or the native Anatolians themselves? who was there before the coming of the Turks? does any WN even realize there were people in Anatolia before the Turks? how many even know to what the name refers?

      And so on — the history of the Jews, their ethnic identity, is actually extremely plain, but “conspiracy” types confuse things for two reasons:

      a) The weirdest, most romantic explanation will always be the most popular
      b) Rumors (folk tales) travel fast and die hard

    12. Wolf Says:

      Khzarian, Shmazarian.

      Yid, Kike, Hebe.

      They could be from Mars for all I care.

      All I know is that a Jew is a Jew is a rat Jew.

      I know one when I see one.

    13. Vaultner Says:

      Wolf sums it up better than I but here’s my two cents:
      I don’t understand the great debate here. If you can except the sephartic tale, why not more jews of a different origin. I don’t think that adding the Khazarian theory to it absolves other jews one bit.
      After all the thousands of years of their intrusion on White European society is it impossible to believe that there are not more of them?

    14. Friedrich Braun Says:

      “Ah well. If khazaria.org says so, it must be true.”

      none rejects scientific evidence that points to a Khazar origin of Ashkenazi Jews. Aside from that, his arguments and logic are impressive.

    15. none Says:

      none rejects scientific evidence that points to a Khazar origin of Ashkenazi Jews.

      I reject kooky romantic stories touted as theory. If the means of human communication were presently at the same level as that obtaining in the time of the Khazars, a few centuries from now people would surely work up scientific evidence pointing to an American origin for Ashkenazi Jews — and from their perspective would be no less right given the evidence our age is preparing for them. It’s looking at the matter from the wrong end. I’m sure these Khazars were no more enthusiastic about fiat imposition of Jewish religion on their folk as we are today: such is the way of bad leaders. From this, anti-Semites and a couple crazy Jews decided that Biblical Jews could not possibly have left any ethnic trace on this Earth, and so these Khazars must be their inheritors. Anyone who believes backward romantic crap like this is one step from believing how the leopard got his spots.

    16. none Says:

      And hey, thanks.

    17. none Says:

      It’s a lot like Indian nationalists scientifically proving that Aryans were autochthonous. The whole existence of a world-historic folk (mistaken for racial aliens sharing a distant cultural relationship/tribal designation) is telescoped out from one place, fixed upon because the notion has some real or imagined political significance to the adherent of the idea. Very petite moderne approach, with some DNA facts & figures shoveled atop.

    18. DQ Says:

      None sure doesn’t like the people to talk about the Khazars. “Jewish” history all points to the Khazrs. How else would those jews in easten Europe just pop up out of nowhere? But it does get confusing for many people so it is better to just lump them all in one group and call them jews. I would also call the story of the Khazars anything but romantic. The only people who might find it romantic are Khazars. I remember reading about jewish “interfaith” dating and throwing away thousands of years of history, LOL to that one. Conscious “jews” don’t want the “jewish” herd to know about the Khazars because it takes “their” history away from them. Besides David Duke said that most jews are Khazars and if Duke says it then it must be true.

      Fucking Khazars, they’re responsible for all the wars.
      -Mel Gibson American hero

    19. none Says:

      How else would those jews in easten Europe just pop up out of nowhere?

      They didn’t “pop out of nowhere” — they came from the Rhineland. How do you think they all got those German surnames, genius? and you do realize people walked great distances before mass transport, yes?

      Conscious “jews” don’t want the “jewish” herd to know about the Khazars because it takes “their” history away from them.

      Damn, you got me. The anti-Semitic gumshoes have done it again!

      Besides David Duke said that most jews are Khazars and if Duke says it then it must be true.


    20. none Says:

      “Jewish” history all points to the Khazrs.

      The only thing that “points to the Khazars” is people desperately pointing to the Khazars. Like Gawd and “green go!”/gringo, it be naught but mythology — and when man gets hold of an appealing myth, one he secretly thinks benefits him, nothing under or beyond the sun can dislodge it.

    21. DQ Says:

      “Jews” walked great distances from Khazaria to Germany. They don’t all have German surnames, only the ones from Germany. Many of them have Russian, Ukrainian, or Polish names.

    22. none Says:

      DQ has it all figured out! Now — cui bono?

    23. ein Says:

      They didn’t “pop out of nowhere” — they came from the Rhineland. How do you think they all got those German surnames, genius? and you do realize people walked great distances before mass transport, yes?
      They didn’t walk if they could avoid it. (Who would?) There was always mass transport (caravans, barges,etc.) Before MOTORIZED transport, traders/travelers generally used water routes where possible. There are many rivers, lakes and seas in Europe. Overland routes were the last resort, only when water wasn’t available.
      As for “those Germanic surnames”, those were not acquired until imposed by law in the late 1700’s (Austria), and then elsewhere by Napoleon’s edict of 1808. This was really an event quite recent in history. Jews resisted it bitterly. Before that, Ashkenazic Jews did not have last names, whether Germanic or otherwise. (Sephardic Jews did.)

    24. Laydee Liberty Says:

      “The Jewish racial myth flows from the fact that the words Hebrew, Israelite, Jew, Judaism, and the Jewish people have been used synonymously to suggest a historic continuity.

      But this is a misuse. These words refer to different periods in history.

      Hebrew is a term correctly applied to the period from the beginning of Biblical history to the settling in Canaan.

      Israelite refers correctly to the members of the twelve tribes of Israel.

      The name Yehudi or Jew is used in the Old Testament to designate members of the tribe of Judah, descendants of the fourth son of Jacob, as well as to denote citizens of the Kingdom [or house] of Judah. . .

      Centuries later, the same word [Jew] came to be applied TO ANYONE, no matter of WHAT ORIGIN, whose religion was Judaism.”

      -Dr. Alfred M. Lilienthal, What Price Israel

    25. Laydee Liberty Says:

      On September 10, 1985 in an address entitled “Middle East Terror -The Double Standard” to the Cornell Club of Washington DC,

      Dr Alfred M Lilienthal revealed that the Khazar-Jewish connection has been VERIFIED by MANY prominent anthropologists.

      ” The overwhelming majority of Jews are descendants from the converts of Khazaria and elsewhere who ADOPTED Judaism….

      This view of the NON-ethnicity of the largest portion of Jewry is sustained by such prominent anthropologists as Ripley, Weissenberg, Hertz, Boas, Pittard, Fishberg, Mead and OTHERS”

      – Dr. Alfred M. Lilienthal

    26. Laydee Liberty Says:

      “Political Zionism is almost exclusively a movement by the Jews of Europe. But these Eastern European Jews have neither a racial nor a historic connection with Palestine.

      Their ancestors were not inhabitants of the “Promised Land.”
      They are the direct descendants of the people of the Khazar Kingdom, which existed until the 12th century.

      These Eastern European, Yiddish-speaking Jews who form the Zionist group practically in toto [almost entirely], have neither a geographic, historic nor ethnic connection with either the Jews [Israelite Judahites] of the Old Testament or the land known today as Palestine.”

      -Dr. Benjamin H. Freedman, published by the National Economic Council, Inc. as “Council Letter No. 177 (October 15, 1947)

    27. Laydee Liberty Says:

      “(1) Jews are not a race. This is proven from jewish sources in regard to Falashim or Black jews; Benai Israel or Indian jews; Chinese jews, who look Chinese to a foreigner, but who are not real Chinese; the Sephardim or semitic jews; and the Ashkenazim or “Russian” jews, who are most likely to have White genes. These people converted to Judaism in 700 A.D.

      Many of them resemble White people, but all of them, according to “The Genetics of the Jews” have Afro-Asian genes, including the blondest of them. Blond, blue-eyed people with Afro-Asian genes are not White, but mongrels. ”

      (2) Jews are not a religious group, for they include atheists.
      Two thirds of the “jewish” population of Israel are NOT religious, but claim to be “jewish” through their mothers, which is how Orthodox rabbis define “jewishness”. A White person who ‘converts’ to Judaism will NOT be deemed a jew by Orthodox rabbis.

      (3) Jews are not an ethnic group because they reside in all parts of the world and resemble their host peoples in looks, language, and often, in religion.

      Yet, they consider themselves jews. What can be their common bond? Not religion, not race, not ethnicity, but economy!

      It’s their rackets which bind them together as jews, exactly as the “patels” are bound together by their caste-determined role as merchants. Such disparate groups maintain cohesion with their common interests, and behave like a nation among nations. Yet, they are not a nation, which is comprised of people with a common genetic origin. ”

      by Eric Thomson

    28. Socrates Says:

      Laydee Liberty Says: “(1) Jews are not a race. “

      We know today that Ashkenazim Jews are a race.

    29. grendal Says:

      i filled out an application resently and under the race selection it included north africans and arabs under the “white” selection box, since when are arabs and africans white? just another way to confuse white people .

    30. "Cato" Says:

      “None” is mischaracterizing the evidence on the Khazars. The evidence styrongly suggests a Khazar derivation of Russian Jewry. Here is a lirttle history lesson.

      The migration of the German Jews eastward was very small in number. Those numbers cannot account for the huge numbers of Jews in the heartland of the old Khazar country with distinctly Turkic/Mongoloid features. Linguistic evidence, as adduced by the Tel Aviv linguist, Paul Wexler, also indicates a Khazar derivation of the Jewish language. First, it is necessary to realize that Yiddish, the language of the Jewish masses in Eastern Europe, comes in two forms: German Yiddish and East Slavic Yiddish. According to Wexler, East Slavic Yiddish is considerably different grammatically than German Yiddish. The difference arises from the fact that East Slavic Yiddish has German words grafted onto a base that is Turkic-Slavic in character. Wexler demonstrates that the verbs of East Slavic Yiddish are Turkic in origin and do not correspond with German verbs. What happened is that as Turkic speaking Khazars migrated westward with the Slavic tribes with whom they interbred, the Khazars adopted the vocabulary of the more advanced German Jews-and then relexified their language with the new German vocabulary. But they kept the underlying Turkic (and occasionally Slavic) grammatical construction. Henc, the marked difference between the two dialects.

      The ancient accounts of the Khazar conversion to Judaism are virtually unanimous that it was a mass conversion over time, not a conversion of the nobles only, as wrongly asserted by Dunlop and some other writers. The discovery of Khazar burial sites in the nineth century A.D., indicates a major change in burial patterns about this time, with Jewish religious artifacts replacing older forms of burial. Coins with Jewish inscriptions minted by the Khazars have been found as far north as Sweden. These archaeological facts are consistent with what the ancient accounts tell us. The genetic evidence is very difficult to evaluate. First, it must be understood that the Khazars were not ethnically homogeneous. There existed both the “black’ and “white” Khazars, distinctly different in appearance. The Khazars are known to have interbred widely with their Slavic subject tribes. Thus, no one knows for sure how many genetic types or subtypes existed within the Khazar population, or how many of the Khazars fell within which category. Moreover, no one knows how similar, or distinct, the Khazars were, genetically, with the other Turkish populations in the area. When, in addition to these facts, is added the fact that Middle Eastern Jews had moved northward to settle among the Khazar population, and that the Khazars interbred with German Jewish populations moving eastward, it is obvious how extremely difficult disentangling the genetic picture would be. Otherwise competent scholars, such as Kevin MacDonald, lose sight of these obvious considerations when jumping to conclusions based on insufficient data. Despite these obvious problems, there are indeed measurable traces of Khazar ancestry in the Jewish gene pool. Dienekes Anthropology Blog provides an analysis, based on various haplotypes (or genetic markers on chromosomes) that 25% or even double that amount of Eastern Jewry, could have Khazar genes. Joaquim Martillo and an Arab professor of genetics have disputed Jewish claims of essential genetic similarity of Jews in the Middle East and the Jews of Eastern Europe. In actual fact, the data (as opposed to the claims of the Jewish researchers) show considerable difference between Middle Eastern and Eastern European Jewish DNA. Possible sources of Khazar DNA are found in the R1A1 haplotype and, even more importantly, in Q haplotype typical of the Central Asian landmap. There is also an interesting amount of “Cohen” DNA found in Russian Jews, suggestive of a conversion of the Khazar priesthood to Levite (or assistant priest) status.

      It is unlikely that the issue of Khazar origin can ever be settkled conclusively by genetic testing because of all the methodological problems listed above plus the passage of centuries. However, the consistency of the ancient accounts, the archaeological excavations and the presence of huge numbers of Jews in the heartland of the old Khazar country speak very strongly in favor of the theory. “None” needs to do considerably more research before glibly dismissing subjects of which he knows so little.