It's a completely absurd case that shows that the kikes are truly grasping for straws. They spit into the wind and just wind up getting their face wet.

When Hale first got locked up and before they decided to change their name to "The Creativity Movement" Hale suggested to Kroenke from inside jail that if we wanted to use the name in print we should say it like this:

The Church "Our Church Is Called The Church Of The Creator" -Ben Klassen 1973

This way, we could say we were quoting a copywrited book.

I never found out why they stopped persuing this method, but most likely they were still going to get fined or their website shut down despite the defense that they were quoting a copywrited book.

I never really cared about any of this stuff and have no idea WTF it has to do with Alex and VNN.

I never got into the WCOTC... Ben Klassen was an untermensch (slavic)

My question is this: When did the 'Te-Tah-Ma' outfit actually copyright the name COTC? For the life of me, I've never been able to get a handle of the chronology.

The kikes got the copyright in 1988. Why did they wait for so long before prosecuting? I guess they figured it seemed too much like a long shot at first, but later on ran out of options.

BTW, Et_En_Arcadia_Est, Klassen annoys you simply because he is a 'name' and has a body of work you're unfamiliar with and are too impatient to get to know. A high IQ does not preclude insipid behaviour. Chill out.

I'm surprised he ever came back. Last time he made a really big deal about leaving for good and never coming back, just like Gabrielle, but I actually found her to be only slightly less annoying.

He did leave for a few weeks during which not a single person here missed his remarkable intelligence.

Ego, take Georgie's advice and if you want to argue about who is white, do it in the appropriate section (the white anthropology section, but you should be smart enough to figure that out yourself) instead of distrupting interesting discussions here in the main forum.

My question is this: When did the 'Te-Tah-Ma' outfit actually copyright the name COTC? For the life of me, I've never been able to get a handle of the chronology. So, I ask again, who knows when this Christian sect copyrighted the name. All the articles I've browsed revolving around the case over the last couple of years are vague on this issue. I wonder why. But I would like to know for sure, as I'm under the impression that they're simply a front-group funded by the Feds in order to undermine Hale and thus create a scenario whereby agent provocuteurs could set him up. etc.

BTW, Et_En_Arcadia_Est, Klassen annoys you simply because he is a 'name' and has a body of work you're unfamiliar with and are too impatient to get to know. A high IQ does not preclude insipid behaviour. Chill out.

I think if Hale was a New Yorker he would never have been setup. I've been to the Chicago area and Peoria and it doesn't even compare.

I'm sure if a .wav or .mp3 file of it was put on the internet and I had a chance to listen to it I would laugh at the naivety. Not out of malice though and I never knew Hale or had anything to do with him.

Hmm, interesting you noticed I had a high IQ. Someone else told me that once in a computer Laboratory on a college Campus.

The average IQ of America is about 98 and Canada is even worse. I have some southern central European genes like Hitler with some decent Anglo and celtic -- hence, the contrast with most normal people. I think the area of Austria, Alsace, Germany, Netherlands etc.. produce the people with the highest IQ's consistently. The Anglos occasionally sporadically pop out a high IQ person as well -- however, it's not as consistent as seen by the average IQ of the England which is 100.

Diabloblanco could almost compete because Italy produces people with IQ's in the range of "102" -- however, ultimately it was too much.

I don't know enough to comment about the Hale case unfortunately. I could very easily train myself just by reading to be a lawyer. Jefferson did and many other people have a deep understanding of the law just from casual hobby like interest.

Someone like Edgar Steele would be better to comment on the case with authority. Someone who woul actually have an active interest. Who knows of under Draconian law and highly illegal John Ashcroft laws if anyone could even get enough "info" to comment. Seems hermetically sealed through the worse sort of government malfeasance (statis tactics). However, can't speak for any man. So I'm not implying he would take the case. I don't even know him. I'm implying if you wanted an off the cuff technical "assessment" of the case: that is the type of man to become friends with or go to. Just from reading his habitual text discharges I would assess his IQ to be loosely in my range abouts.

I think several iconoclastic kikes went to the supreme court several times this year who where of this caliber (casual perusers).

Something like that would interest me much more than any deviant behaviour Hale got nailed for or that silly cult like Church (if one can even call it a church).

For some strange reason society has become very litigious with the deification of lawyers to an almost god like status. Just because they have the basic verbal IQ and enough logic/performance IQ to understand and practise law.

The same with medical doctors. I can understand this a little more since a moron with a 100 IQ would see someone who could safe or sustain "life" as god like.

Inexorably the highest quality doctors are attracted to Nazism once it catches enough steam. Simply because of the free wielding range it gives them on actual "humans" which is prevented in a free society and by the traditional church establishment.

I generally view most medical doctors as nothing more than drug pushers of the industrio-medical complex and morons who buy every swill of propaganda (either through courting/briding or downright sheer peer pressure and saturation).

That isn't to say that all doctors are this way. My cousin is a doctor who refutes paracelsus quite readily. However, I see he has weakened in his resolve since he has a family and the "industrio-medical-complex" is surely well used to dealing with such situations.

Someone like myself admires the genius who dies penniless rather than the doctor down at Lennox Hill hospital who wastes his life (generally huge shifts 18 hours sometimes) but gets to drive away in the latest porsche.

BTW, alot of geniuses do die penniless. I'm not calling myself a genius here just giving you an insight into my personality (people I tend to admire).

That doesn't make sense to most people in a society based on capitalism. Alot of things I do don't make sense to the herd. Even in a ethnically European society the herd will be perplexed by my eccentricities.

Eccentricity in this society is often linked to certain upper class modes. Hence, the endless amounts of billionaires in Manhattan buying antiques worth millions just to gut them and put a television in or put their dog in Kidney Dialysus

I was recently thrown out on my ear from college for such heretic bromide loquacity. So here I wrote from the humdrum creeping saxon suburbs where one "predator" was change to another.

I would feel just as comfortable living in the most multi-cultural cosmopolitan non-sequitar complex portion of Manhattan. Again, one predator would be change for another.

It's all social Darwinism. That is fine with me

I don't believe in the Tabla Rosa communist theory. I'm just using it tersely as it was originally intended.

Mostly eccentricity is usually linked

I did casually take a course on law in college course once. Never really peaked my interest because they represented it to me in kind of a "corporate business" type of

I never really cared about any of this stuff and have no idea WTF it has to do with Alex and VNN.

I never got into the WCOTC... Ben Klassen was an untermensch (slavic)

You're an idiot, EEAEgo, and you add nothing constructive to the dialog. Now go to the idiots' box, sit on your hands and shut up.

[kerplop!]

The kikes got the copyright in 1988. Why did they wait for so long before prosecuting?

1988 - 1972 = 16. The question should be why wasn't this case thrown out as frivilous and the TA TE D/ADL lawyers sanctioned, since the name Church of the Creator clearly satisfied the three requirements of copyright protection and the law is not ambiguous: "rights are granted to those who have been using the mark the longest."

This reminds me of when the Macon County, NC, Tax Assessor spent $13,500 of taxpayers' money to take away the COTC's perfectly legitimate tax exempt status as a church -- like every other church in Macon County enjoyed at the time -- so he could then collect $700 in property taxes on the property in Otto, NC. I wonder if that sorry excuse for a White man is still wasting oxygen? Klassen should have prevailed in that challenge, but didn't have an attorney and finally threw in the towel after having made several trips to Raleigh for Department of Revenue hearings. He was simply worn down, having had enough of all the plaintiff's lawyers' tricks to delay a decision and wear him down.

After reading Ben Klassen's books, I would certainly consider myself to be a Creator in Spirit. Since millions have had the opportunity to embrace his teachings, Do you think the government is lying when they say he only has 12-16 followers?

Hey Will,

Here's an Idea for you. Why don't you set up a legal "OFFENSE" fund? The best defense is a good offense. How many whites would contribute to bring the ADL and SPLC conspirators to Justice in an old fashioned American Common Law Court, as described in our Constitution. How many whites would contribute financially and physically to participate in a class action Lawsuit directed against these crooked Kikes?

On page 262 of Book One, the first half of _Nature's Eternal Religion_, is this declaration by the Founder of the COTC: "We are herewith founding a new religion for the White race. We are calling the new religion CREATIVITY. Our Church is called THE CHURCH OF THE CREATOR. Members of our religion are called CREATORS." This was written 32 years ago and hundreds of thousands, if not millions of Klassen's books and pamphlets bearing this name have been distributed since then.

If we're going to find ourselves in a goddamned JOG courtroom, we need to be on the offensive, going after "watchdogs" like the ADL and the SPLC, not as defendants.

I've never quite understood how the Anti-Defamation League of Bad Breath (ADL), through their shill "Church," TA DE DA, or whatever, in Oregon, could steal the name of the Church of the Creator, then prosecute the rightful successor and proprietor of the name and have compliant courts of law demand the destruction of all religious books and other materials of the rightful owners. Well, I do understand how the ADL/JOG can do this, but I can't understand why Hale, being a Dr. of Law, couldn't mount a successful defense of the ADL assault on the COTC.

Well that’s an easy one Will. Hale didn’t want to be found liable for the 1 million-dollar judgment in the Loeb-Mansfield case. So he never claimed prior use entitlement to the name. I read the Judgement summary in this case but don’t have it handy. Basically Hale claimed that the words in the name Church Of The Creator are generic in nature and open to free use. The judge noted that Hale failed to make the strong and obvious prior use claim because he wanted to avoid collection action from the SPLC.

It should also be noted that Hale’s Bibles did not have to be delivered up for destruction. All he had to do was cover the “offending” marks or name with a sticker. Ben Klassen’s Mormon daughter probably holds the copyrights to his books – not the Jews or Xtians. There is nothing stopping someone from republishing them except lack of interest.

This whole affair is another illustration of the inherent danger in the Mini-Fuhrer syndrome that has eternally plagued the “movement”. Every group that I can think of, past or present, is or was controlled by insufferable egomaniacs who are unwilling to share their authority in order to build a real organization.

In the case of the COTC/WCOTC Klassen felt threatened by talent and originality and drove off anyone of quality who agreed to work with him. He was intolerant of anyone who wouldn’t play the part of fawning yes man. I know I don’t have to tell you this Will. You also know that his “organization” crumbled when he was unable to find a competent successor. At the eleventh hour he asked dozens of people to take the reigns, including yourself, but no one was willing to work with him. After publicly naming a pizza delivery driver who played with bombs as a hobby, then switching to a drunken skinhead who could barely write his own name, he finally selected a fraudulent tele-marketer who he had known for a total of two months. Needless to say the Tele-marketer cashed in and closed shop the day he received notice of the SPLC lawsuit. Hale continued Klassen’s leadership style by alienating and expelling any member that dared to give voice to a unique opinion. Protecting his dictator status was more important to him than building a real organization. That’s why “Creativity” has once again fallen - until the next would-be High-Mucky-Muck or Pontifex Maximus takes up the banner to indulge his delusions of grandeur.

Sorry for getting off topic here, I’m just frustrated that for the last forty years we haven’t had a leader willing to set aside his ego in order to build a quality organization that can survive the founder’s death or imprisonment.

it's in the character of "entreprenurial individuals" who blaze an uncommon trail, to have the kind of personality Jack Napier describes. As Napier suggests, WLP may have been somewhat analogous. This situation is not unknown in family businesses either. Usually the second generation milks what the first generation built, and by the time the third generation hits it's totally screwed up.

there are entire chapters of business textbooks in the area of "organizational development" devoted to this sort of thing.

Well that’s an easy one Will. Hale didn’t want to be found liable for the 1 million-dollar judgment in the Loeb-Mansfield case. So he never claimed prior use entitlement to the name. I read the Judgement summary in this case but don’t have it handy. Basically Hale claimed that the words in the name Church Of The Creator are generic in nature and open to free use. The judge noted that Hale failed to make the strong and obvious prior use claim because he wanted to avoid collection action from the SPLC.

It should also be noted that Hale’s Bibles did not have to be delivered up for destruction. All he had to do was cover the “offending” marks or name with a sticker. Ben Klassen’s Mormon daughter probably holds the copyrights to his books – not the Jews or Xtians. There is nothing stopping someone from republishing them except lack of interest.

This whole affair is another illustration of the inherent danger in the Mini-Fuhrer syndrome that has eternally plagued the “movement”. Every group that I can think of, past or present, is or was controlled by insufferable egomaniacs who are unwilling to share their authority in order to build a real organization.

In the case of the COTC/WCOTC Klassen felt threatened by talent and originality and drove off anyone of quality who agreed to work with him. He was intolerant of anyone who wouldn’t play the part of fawning yes man. I know I don’t have to tell you this Will. You also know that his “organization” crumbled when he was unable to find a competent successor. At the eleventh hour he asked dozens of people to take the reigns, including yourself, but no one was willing to work with him. After publicly naming a pizza delivery driver who played with bombs as a hobby, then switching to a drunken skinhead who could barely write his own name, he finally selected a fraudulent tele-marketer who he had known for a total of two months. Needless to say the Tele-marketer cashed in and closed shop the day he received notice of the SPLC lawsuit. Hale continued Klassen’s leadership style by alienating and expelling any member that dared to give voice to a unique opinion. Protecting his dictator status was more important to him than building a real organization. That’s why “Creativity” has once again fallen - until the next would-be High-Mucky-Muck or Pontifex Maximus takes up the banner to indulge his delusions of grandeur.

Sorry for getting off topic here, I’m just frustrated that for the last forty years we haven’t had a leader willing to set aside his ego in order to build a quality organization that can survive the founder’s death or imprisonment.

I can't disagree with anything you say here, Jack, except that I knew of only six or seven men who had been offered the Pontifex Maximus position, not dozens. You are obviously familiar with the demise of Klassen's Church. I had suspected Hale feared the million dollar default judgment that Morris Dees was awarded against the COTC on Rick McCarty's watch (the tele-marketer). It didn't make much sense for Hale to worry because his WCOTC was not the true successor to Klassen's COTC (thus the name change) EVEN THOUGH HE LIKED TO CLAIM THAT HE WAS. The COTC assets were gone (sold to Dr. Pierce), so Matt could have claimed to be the true successor, starting from scratch, bankrupt, and then invoke the prior use defense on the trademark case. Hale should have become judgment-proof, against the Dees judgement, anyway, and sent Dees to try and collect from BK's daughter. When Dees tried to collect his ill-gotten million dollars from Dr. Pierce in that crazy lawsuit, claiming constructive receipt, he only got the $85,000 profit Dr. Pierce made on the resale through a court-arranged consent agreement. That was settled. There was nothing to collect by Dees after that. Hale was outgunned from day one by our Jewish watchdogs and their compliant JOG courts. Law school didn't help him much.

I agree that COTC books are in the public domain and can be republished, and will be available on the internet somehow in good time. They are an excellent deprogramming tool. Klassen was no leader but he did work with a single-minded purpose for 25 years to create a forward-looking religion for Whites.

I also agree with your observations about overweening egos of individuals who want to be the big cheese and lead the White race. Our best people are not personally ambitious when it comes to matters of race, and they have had a bellyful, like you and like me, of the "mini-Fuhrers" with delusions of grandeur who will most certainly lead us down another deadend street.

One of these days the entire story of the rise and fall of the COTC will be told, and by those who participated, NOT by the enemy. Unfortunately, the same can now be said of the National Alliance. The next generation of the White resistance is trying to find it's legs now, and must learn from Klassen's and Pierce's example AND from their mistakes. Both of these men had the right idea and were aimed in the right direction. Pierce definitely had the better vision of things to come. He admired Klassen's singlemindedness to expose Xianity as suicidal for Whites. They both woke up and activated thousands of us who continue their fight.

There's an easy way of frustrating ZOG's focus: Stay out of any and all leadership organizations. Stick only with leaderless resistance.

Now we need both the leaderless AND the led. How in the world can the once mighty, but now shrinking White race be expected to confront the very organized Jew and the spiking worldwide non-White population with all our resisters hiding in the shadows, without organizing for our exclusive interests as our racial competition do? I don't see any evidence that the so-called "lone wolves" are taking care of business AT ALL! I don't see where the Jew is frustrated at all by the Aryan's almost total lack of an organized resistance. Can you tell me what the leaderless are doing? What is their plan to wrestle power from Jew? What will they do when they reclaim White living space? Organize?

We outnumber the Jew at least 30:1 in this country yet we seem to have lost our will to survive as a people. Dr. Pierce had it right in trying to build our own mass media to counter the Jew's stranglehold on means of mass opinion-molding; that's the key. It will take determined, uncompromising leadership by men of our race who aren't afraid to say "Yes, of course I'm a White racist. So what? What in the hell are you?"

Just because there is a paucity of extraordinary White leadership on the scene today doesn't mean we should not organize, and, hopefully, organize around the time-tested Leadership Principle model that was recognized and promoted by both Klassen and Pierce and the men before them, most notably, Mr. Hitler.

Should Hamas give up organizing the Palestinian resistance just because Sharon and that bunch of US-backed, hook-nosed desert wanderers keep targetting and killing their leaders? Should Al Queda? The VERY organized Jew would love that, just as they love seeing the White resistance atomized and unorganized in a "leaderless" blob.

I agree that COTC books are in the public domain and can be republished, and will be available on the internet somehow in good time.

Nine of the holy books are available online in pdf format at http://www.creativityohio.com Sixty-two of Matt Hale's In Klassen We Trust speeches are available from that site as well.

The White Man's Bible and Nature's Eternal Religion are also available to read as web text at http://www.overthrow.com/creator

Hale continued Klassen?s leadership style by alienating and expelling any member that dared to give voice to a unique opinion.

I disagree, Jack.

Have you ever heard of their unique opinion on Christmas? No other racialist group has one like this. Creators celebrate "Festum Album" or white festival from Dec. 26 to Jan. 1 and are encouraged to light a candle each of the seven days following customary family get togethers during Christmas and realize that whites celebrated the winter solstice long before the jewsus myth.

Listen to this short 17 minute unscripted speech from December 2002 to hear more about the holiday that was a unique idea from John King. http://www.creativityohio.com/ikwt/ikwt0060.rm

Nine of the holy books are available online in pdf format at http://www.creativityohio.com Sixty-two of Matt Hale's In Klassen We Trust speeches are available from that site as well.

The White Man's Bible and Nature's Eternal Religion are also available to read as web text at http://www.overthrow.com/creator

I disagree, Jack.

Have you ever heard of their unique opinion on Christmas? No other racialist group has one like this. Creators celebrate "Festum Album" or white festival from Dec. 26 to Jan. 1 and are encouraged to light a candle each of the seven days following customary family get togethers during Christmas and realize that whites celebrated the winter solstice long before the jewsus myth.

Listen to this short 17 minute unscripted speech from December 2002 to hear more about the holiday that was a unique idea from John King. http://www.creativityohio.com/ikwt/ikwt0060.rm

That isn’t what I meant. You have interpreted my words too literally. Just as Klassen didn’t offer the position to “dozens” of men, both Klassen and Hale were quite willing to accept new ideas for the organization or ideology. My point really was that both exhibited an autocratic leadership style that equated disagreement with heresy. Klassen as the author of several “Bibles” seemed to believe that his every personal opinion or position was sacred. Hale relished his role as mini-fuhrer and was known to appoint toadies to positions of “authority” and revoke the appointment after the person attempted to exercise the implied power of that position. The result of this style of leadership in both cases was that a competent leadership pool was never developed - leading to the dissolution of both groups when the mini-fuhrer was no longer in a position to lead.

This is all very, very interesting information. Both about the Holy Books of Creativity and the background of the COTC.

It's good to read that the books can be reprinted if someone has the interest. Of course opinions expressed here are not legal opinions approved by a court so I just have to hope that the person stating this knows what he's talking about.

I also thought that it was a good description that the books are a "de-programing tool" or some such words. I always thought of them as a "primer" for those who first come to think of life in racial terms and want a place to start and something to lead to future research if they so desire.

Someone mentioned the connection between Pierce and Klassen. I've heard they were friends, met many times, but decided to go in slightly different directions. Does anyone have any information on this.

Thanks.

Read: Natures Eternal Religion
http://www.wcotc.com.au/holybooks/ner.html