Fissile, here is the situation.
Onyx missiles fired from within Cuban air space can take out all of the US oil platforms in the Gulf of Mexico and probably a supertanker or two as targets of opportunity.
Onyx missiles fired from 200 miles away can wipe out a US fleet and there is nothing that the fleet can do to protect itself, other than have a screen of fighters in the air at 200 plus miles and hope that they intercept the SUs before they launch.
Venezuela does not have to win a war of attrition. It cannot fight such a war because, as you pointed out, its force is tiny compared to that of the USA.
The USA has to gets its forces into a position from which they can attack Venezuela and then mount such an attack.
The Venezuelans will have the home field advantage.
They do not need to have 3,000 fighters to take on the entire US fleet air arm.
They need just enough to launch some Onyx missiles to sink the fleet at maximum range, then dart off home before they can be intercepted by the US fighter screen.

None of you know what you're talking about, as usual.

So how many planes is the commie spic buying? 30? Big deal. Do any of you know how many combat aircraft the USA has? I'll bet it's in the thousands.

Second, the Russians never export their top-shelf stuff, they save that for themselves. All the exported Russian stuff has decreased functionality.

In a shooting war with the USA, how long do you think it would take the USAF to burn 30 Russian airplanes? I'm guessing about 20 minutes. If the spics get lucky, they make take one or two ZOG planes with them.

The commie spic is buying this stuff as anti-military coup insurance. If ZOG can infiltrate his mestizo army, and get it to march on his palace, he's going to use these planes to hose them down. This is anti-coup insurance, and nothing more.

The commie spic is worried that ZOG may be getting ready to depose him. This purchase is the act of a scared man.

I hate agreeing with Fizz but he's absolutely right. The flankers a good plane but what matters most in air combat is the pilots. well-trained pilots who know how to use the qualities of their jets, makes the difference in the history of air combat. Does anybody here think that spic pilots can take on a White guy in an F-16 and come out on top?

Lets use the first gulf war as an example. Saddam had a couple hundred Russian Migs. The first week of the air war saw a few Iraqi sorties, but these did little damage and thirty-eight Iraqi MiGs were shot down by Zog planes with none lost by the US. Saddam saw the writing on the wall and soon after, the Iraqi Air Force began fleeing to Iran, with between 115 to 140aircraft flown to Iran.

Yes, the Iraq Migs had missles that could sink an aircraft carrier but to do that you first have to get airborne, approach the carrier, lock in the missles guidence system and then fire. Sounds simple doesn't it. Then why didn't raghead pilots do it? Because they knew the moment they took off US aircraft would pounce on them and kill them deader than a fuckin doornail.

Fissile, here is the situation.
Onyx missiles fired from within Cuban air space can take out all of the US oil platforms in the Gulf of Mexico and probably a supertanker or two as targets of opportunity.
Onyx missiles fired from 200 miles away can wipe out a US fleet and there is nothing that the fleet can do to protect itself, other than have a screen of fighters in the air at 200 plus miles and hope that they intercept the SUs before they launch.
Venezuela does not have to win a war of attrition. It cannot fight such a war because, as you pointed out, its force is tiny compared to that of the USA.
The USA has to gets its forces into a position from which they can attack Venezuela and then mount such an attack.
The Venezuelans will have the home field advantage.
They do not need to have 3,000 fighters to take on the entire US fleet air arm.
They need just enough to launch some Onyx missiles to sink the fleet at maximum range, then dart off home before they can be intercepted by the US fighter screen.

The JewSA has 12 operational aircraft carriers, plus 2 in reserve and 1 under construction. I'm sure George The Idiot is going to line all of them up like ducks off the coast of Venezuela so Red Hugo can take pot shots at them with his Russian "super missiles".

I've seen some dullards on this board, but you're one of the dullest. One more time. Those "super missiles" ain't. The Russians delivered some over-sized bottle rockets to Red Hugo, grabbed his cash and ran. As for the planes, THEY ARE FOR USE AGAINST UPPITY VENEZUELAIAN PEASANTS.

You need to throw out your comic books, flush that joint down a toilet, and get yourself a job.

Salutes people, Gary Brecher "the war nerd" had very good column about this, called "Venezuela: Enchilada of evil"
it`s at:
http://www.exile.ru/2006-October-06/venezuela_enchilada_of_evil.html
Also, Chavez is a s.o.b. don`t support him unless you want a fidel style a** hole like him for another forty years sitting on the world`s largest oil reserves. On the other hand kudos to Putin:cheers:, he managed to do achieve 2 things at the same time:
1. Rack up 3 billion dollars in sales, plus future purchases of parts and upgrades.
2. Slap Dubya`s idea that Russia has to be a satelllite nation of the U.S. and ban sales of weapons to countries the U.S. doesn`t like.

The JewSA has 12 operational aircraft carriers, plus 2 in reserve and 1 under construction. I'm sure George The Idiot is going to line all of them up like ducks off the coast of Venezuela so Red Hugo can take pot shots at them with his Russian "super missiles".

I've seen some dullards on this board, but you're one of the dullest. One more time. Those "supper missiles" ain't. The Russians delivered some over-sized bottle rockets to Red Hugo, grabbed his cash and ran. As for the planes, THEY ARE FOR USE AGAINST UPPITY VENEZUELAIAN PEASANTS.

You need to throw out your comic books, flush that joint down a toilet, and get yourself a job.

Pride comes before a fall.
"Though your enemy may be only the size of an ant, imagine him to be a raging elephant." - Sun Tzu
Never, never underestimate a potential adversary or treat them with the contempt that you show.
Need I remind you that a bunch of towel head irregulars with improvised explosive devices are winning the war in Iraq against the mighty USA?
The aim of someone in Chavez's position will be to (a) strike first to damage the USA's capacity to wage war and (b) make the cost of victory so expensive that the USA will abandon the project.
He does not have to go muzzle to muzzle with the USA in open field. He will fight a different sort of war.
Also, a war on Venezuela will almost certainly involve the rest of Latin America siding with Chavez.
What do you think that those 30 million illegal Spics in the USA are going to do once the war starts?
How about the Spics who are now part of the US military (a really stupid move on the part of the ZOG)?
Where do you think that their loyalties will lie?
I am looking at this from the perspective of a former soldier whose training put him on both sides of the guerilla fence.
As for the Chinese, yes, they will take a bath on their treasury bonds. It will a cheap way to fight a war. They have most of the USA's industrial capacity now, so they have little need of the hollow shell that remains. The Asian and European markets will be quite enough for Chinese exports.
Iran will block the Strait of Hormuz for military reasons. Iran has also signed huge oil and gas deals with the Chinese. They do not need markets in the West.
I mean you no personal offence, but I believe that your assessment of the situation is way off target.
Your pride and boastfulness will be your undoing.

One important fact that the report neglected to mention was that the SU could carry the Onyx missile. One Onyx missile will sink an aircraft carrier, or an oil supertanker. It flies at mach 3 and the US fleet has no way to stop it.

I am glad you mentioned the awesome Onyx anti-ship weapon system. Another very dangerous Russian anti-ship missile is the Sunburn. Iran has it and it can bring havoc upon he US Naval fleet in the Persian Gulf. However, I do not know if Russia is planning on selling any of these systems to Chavez. Knowing Putin, however, I would not put it past him.

The Russian Empire is on a fast rise, once again.

SUNBURN

After the collapse of the Soviet Union the old military establishment fell upon hard times. But in the late1990s Moscow awakened to the under-utilized potential of its missile technology to generate desperately needed foreign exchange. A decision was made to resuscitate selected programs, and, very soon, Russian missile technology became a hot export commodity. Today, Russian missiles are a growth industry generating much-needed cash for Russia, with many billions in combined sales to India, China, Viet Nam, Cuba, and also Iran. In the near future this dissemination of advanced technology is likely to present serious challenges to the US. Some have even warned that the US Navy's largest ships, the massive carriers, have now become floating death traps, and should for this reason be mothballed.

The Sunburn missile has never seen use in combat, to my knowledge, which probably explains why its fearsome capabilities are not more widely recognized. Other cruise missiles have been used, of course, on several occasions, and with devastating results. During the Falklands War, French-made Exocet missiles, fired from Argentine fighters, sunk the HMS Sheffield and another ship. And, in 1987, during the Iran-Iraq war, the USS Stark was nearly cut in half by a pair of Exocets while on patrol in the Persian Gulf. On that occasion US Aegis radar picked up the incoming Iraqi fighter (a French-made Mirage), and tracked its approach to within 50 miles. The radar also "saw" the Iraqi plane turn about and return to its base. But radar never detected the pilot launch his weapons. The sea-skimming Exocets came smoking in under radar and were only sighted by human eyes moments before they ripped into the Stark, crippling the ship and killing 37 US sailors.

The 1987 surprise attack on the Stark exemplifies the dangers posed by anti-ship cruise missiles. And the dangers are much more serious in the case of the Sunburn, whose specs leave the sub-sonic Exocet in the dust. Not only is the Sunburn much larger and faster, it has far greater range and a superior guidance system. Those who have witnessed its performance trials invariably come away stunned. According to one report, when the Iranian Defense Minister Ali Shamkhani visited Moscow in October 2001 he requested a test firing of the Sunburn, which the Russians were only too happy to arrange. So impressed was Ali Shamkhani that he placed an order for an undisclosed number of the missiles.

The Sunburn can deliver a 200-kiloton nuclear payload, or: a 750-pound conventional warhead, within a range of 100 miles, more than twice the range of the Exocet. The Sunburn combines a Mach 2.1 speed (two times the speed of sound) with a flight pattern that hugs the deck and includes "violent end maneuvers" to elude enemy defenses. The missile was specifically designed to defeat the US Aegis radar defense system. Should a US Navy Phalanx point defense somehow manage to detect an incoming Sunburn missile, the system has only seconds to calculate a fire solution not enough time to take out the intruding missile. The US Phalanx defense employs a six-barreled gun that fires 3,000 depleted-uranium rounds a minute, but the gun must have precise coordinates to destroy an intruder "just in time."

The Sunburn's combined supersonic speed and payload size produce tremendous kinetic energy on impact, with devastating consequences for ship and crew. A single one of these missiles can sink a large warship, yet costs considerably less than a fighter jet. Although the Navy has been phasing out the older Phalanx defense system, its replacement, known as the Rolling Action Missile (RAM) has never been tested against the weapon it seems destined to one day face in combat. Implications For US Forces in the Gulf

The US Navy's only plausible defense against a robust weapon like the Sunburn missile is to detect the enemy's approach well ahead of time, whether destroyers, subs, or fighter-bombers, and defeat them before they can get in range and launch their deadly cargo. For this purpose US AWACs radar planes assigned to each naval battle group are kept aloft on a rotating schedule. The planes "see" everything within two hundred miles of the fleet, and are complemented with intelligence from orbiting satellites.

But US naval commanders operating in the Persian Gulf face serious challenges that are unique to the littoral, i.e., coastal, environment. A glance at a map shows why: The Gulf is nothing but a large lake, with one narrow outlet, and most of its northern shore, i.e., Iran, consists of mountainous terrain that affords a commanding tactical advantage over ships operating in Gulf waters. The rugged northern shore makes for easy concealment of coastal defenses, such as mobile missile launchers, and also makes their detection problematic.

Link: http://www.rense.com/general59/theSunburniransawesome.htm

ONYX

Designers at the Russian Mashinostroyeniye research and manufacture association Reutovo, a suburban town near Moscow, arrived at the conclusion in the mid-1980s that the countries which had purchased first-generation cruise missiles in the 1970s and the 1980s would need to modernize their missiles in five years' time. Anti-ship missiles made in the U.S., France, Italy and Russia, acquired in large numbers by navies throughout the world, have grown outdated morally and physically. Modern air defense means installed on board ships can easily locate and destroy them. The first-generation missiles could have been replaced by missiles of the next generation, but their export is prevented under international agreements on nonproliferation of missile technologies. The Mashinostroyeniye designers decided to solve this problem without violating international nonproliferation agreements and fill the export gap. And an anti-ship cruise missile of the fourth generation, named Yakhont, has been developed. Different types of carriers can deliver this unique missile.

Yakhont combines the main qualities of future anti-ship - it has small weight and size, it is invisible for modern radars (Stealth technologies), it flies at supersonic speed and is guided autonomously on a "shot-forgot" principle. Yakhont is an operational and tactical missile. It is designed for hitting complex targets. The new Russian missile can be used against both a single medium ship of the destroyer type and against an aircraft-carrier force. The Yakhont designers wanted not just to develop high combat qualities but also to make its use and maintenance as cheap as possible. Its original airframe allowed them to increase its aerodynamic properties and diminish its diameter. Yet another new technical innovation is its transport and launching container, which is adapted to most different carriers, and any modification of the missile can be kept in it up to three years. A technical inspection and diagnostics of the missile's mechanisms can be carried out through a special joint on its body.

The universal missile weights only 3 tons, and it can be placed in all kinds of ships or launches of Russian or foreign make. Its guidance system can be used with various types of carriers. If installed on a ship being modernized, three containers with Yakhont missiles can replace a single launching position of an "old" cruise missile. For instance, when modernizing a boat of the 1241 Tarantul project, which was sold well to dozens of countries in the Soviet years, its four P-15 Termit missiles may be replaced with 12 Yakhont anti-ship cruise missiles. When such a missile leaves its launching container, a sold-fuel booster device, installed in the combustion chamber of the sustainer, is switched on. The missile is thus boosted to a speed of 2 Machs. After that the booster unit is switched off, it is ejected from the sustainer by the oncoming air flow, and a Yakhont continues its flight at the speed of 2.5 Machs due to the operation of a direct-flow liquid-fuel air-breathing engine.

The missile's flight range is up to 300 km if it flies along a combined altitude trajectory, and the range is120 km if altitudes range 5 to 15 meters. It passes the main part of its flight at the altitude of 15 km. A Yakhont missile is guided towards a target by an inertia navigational system using the target-indicating data put into it before launching. At a pre-set point of the trajectory (25-80 km), a target-seeking device determines precisely the location of a target. The target seeker is switched on again after a missile trajectory declines sharply down to 5 to 15 meters, at the moment when a few second are left before hitting a target.

The Yakhont designers assume that at a distance of 300 km the enemy may detect a missile launching and do whatever necessary to destroy the missile. But being "deaf" to jamming a Yakhont missile, flying at a speed of 750 meters per second and performing complex tactical maneuvering during the flight, will reach its target anyway. No navy in the world has effective means against the Russian missile. According to military sources, the Russian Yakhont-Onyx ship wreckers are being installed on two Russian vessels - a submarine and a surface ship, which are currently under construction. It is supposed to be used in coastal Bastion anti-ship defense mobile systems moving on motor vehicle chassis. Designers now concentrate on developing a system making it possible to install the missiles on aircraft of the Su-27 and Su-35 types (an aircraft type of such a missile weighs 2.5 tons). So, these Su planes can carry up to three missiles each and use them against both naval and coastal targets.

Military analysts believe that the Yakhont cruise missile will remain unparalleled in the world at least during a decade. This forecast is confirmed by the interest currently displayed by foreign purchasers. A number of countries in the Asian and Pacific region and the Middle East, which purchased Russian ships and boats armed with cruise missiles, have shown interest in Yakhont. Good prospects open up before it also when ships of a foreign make are to be modernized and it can replace U.S., French, or Italian anti-ship missiles. According to Herbert Yefremov, chief designer of Mashinostroyeniye, it is important for Russia to secure a place on the international market of cruise missiles. Experts assess the demands on the market at 7,000 missiles and the cost of deals may exceed $14 billion.

Link: http://kursk.strana.ru/english/archive/978617257.html

Don't forget that Venezuela also has 22 F-16's in their air force. And they don't need to take on the ENTIRE US Air Force and naval air arm. The entire USAF would take a while to assemble to strike at Venezuela, during which time I think they'd be busy taking out our oil platforms in the Gulf of Mexico.

As was stated, they just need to knock out the oil platforms and whatever carrier battle groups they can get to, and the American people will either force the conflict to a close via pressure on the government or call for all out war with them. I'm not familiar with the political situation in Venezuela right now, but I'd imagine a US occupation wouldn't go over so warmly with the people there (or here), so the best we could hope for would be a friendly dictator taking charge. Friendly dictators tend not to last very long in that part of the world, if history is a clue.

Oh yeah, they also have 2 Type 209 diesel subs built for them by the Germans with a max range of 10,000 nautical miles on the surface doing 10 knots, and something like 400 nautical miles submerged at 4 knots. 400 nautical miles is enough to do some serious damage to the US, and if they were to get into it with the US, I'd suspect Cuba would secretly allow them to base at Cuban ports. This means they could put to sea, immediately submerge, strike Miami and get back to port without ever surfacing. They could probably also wreak havoc on other parts of the Gulf and Atlantic coust with a high probability of survival. Diesel subs are EXTREMELY quiet when they submerge, due to the electric engines having few moving parts and whatnot.

The US is skilled in fighting conventional wars when we're not in danger of attack. What happens when bombs start falling over Miami? What happens when a large portion of our Gulf Coast oil goes bye bye? What happens when the best thing we can do is drop bombs on someone and hope to hell they're killed, or someone starts a coup? The American people would likely have little tolerance for another occupation, especially in THE JUNGLE, where people can hide much more effectively than in the desert, and after our seemingly failed venture in Iraq.

But alas, this is all assuming we keep rattling our sabers and posturing ourselves into yet another war that we can't win. I doubt this administration is stupid enough to get into another shooting war with a country most Americans can't even point out on a map. And if you think the Democrats would allow a war on their fellow socialists, you're stark raving mad.

There will be no war with Venezuela. Not anytime within Dubya's administration, not any time within any foreseeable future.